Pregnancy
Discussion Title: Sexuality, commitment, marriage, divorce
Created by: gail Hanso...
Created on: Thu, 01/03/2008 - 1:04pm.
Created by: gail Hanso...
Created on: Thu, 01/03/2008 - 1:04pm.
multi-contributor blog about
sexuality, commitment, marriage, divorce
SinglDad and others with opinions, let's take the gloves off and have a discussion about these issues. They are foundational to parenting, as sex (uniting sperm and egg) is what causes children. Can we try it, and see if we can keep it respectful, both of one another's reasoning skills and emotional responses? I think that reasoning and emotion are both valid modes of response to this core issue. I don't think we need to use any biological terms, either scientific or vulgar, as what I would like to be discussing is the social and relationship context of sexual activity. I would also like to include ideas about discussing the context of sexual activity with our children. I posit as a basic idea that educating our children is an "early and often" point, like Mayor Daley said about voting.
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Replied: 1/24/2008 2:09pm.
I am glad that you were able to provide a good situation for yourself and your little boy. And I agree that every person has an obligation to carefully make decisions for their own life that will lead to good situations.
I think that most marriages/relationships depend heavily on luck for success. I know that I was more lucky than wise in my choice of husband. I just think that it is not fair to existing children to count on luck. Luck is often bad luck. And here follows the rest of my response to singlDad's points.
Divorce is the acknowledgment of a particular marriage which failed, usually because one or both of the people were unable or unwilling to commit to the shared goal(s). It is a necessary remedy, because people do deceive one another, or themselves. And the lawyers do get rich, but often perform a necessary function, to protect someone who has already been abused and deceived. And if there is no piece of paper filed, no marriage recorded, it's hard to prove that you had any reasonable expectation of anything other than abuse and deceit.
Remarriage/new sexual relationship that leads to more children. The psychologists and psychiatrists and lawyers and prison guards and emergency rooms and funeral parlors get rich off this one. Just look at the posts on these boards. There are two in particular that break my heart. There were not on the same thread, but when you put them together it makes my point. One said, "children are more resilient than they are often given credit for." Another said, of a step-daughter, "now she is dying of AIDS." It is not a "nice idea." It is like "winning the lottery." You can increase the odds of it happening, have kids with a new partner.
SinglDad is right. What a child needs is a commitment from an adult, a commitment of a loving and secure home. That foundation is jeopardized by a child from a new relationship. Do parents deserve some happiness? Everybody deserves happiness. But we are only guaranteed the pursuit of happiness. Is it OK to be a parent who is ready to move on? The point singlDad makes is that foundations DON'T MOVE. I agree. And it is too hard. And I wish it wasn't so.
Argue with me. Prove me wrong. Because chastity before marriage and fidelity afterward are not the norm, and it would be a nice idea that children were not in danger in current society.
Replied: 2/1/2008 8:50pm.
So why do we need to talk to our children about pregnancy as the evolutionary purpose of sexual activity? The purpose of the reproductive system is to REPRODUCE! That is what a healthy reproductive system does, just as a healthy digestive system digests and a healthy circulatory system circulates. You can take hormones and place barriers to interfere with normal function, and they often work. But not always, so it is important to be wise as you choose life-stage and partner for sexual activity. The rising generation is being taught that respect for yourself and your body will mean everything else will fall into place! NOT! Respect for yourself and your body are attitudes. Attitudes are mental activities that influence and are influenced by your sense of well being. They will not prevent fertilization, implantation of a fertilized egg, nor interfere with nourishment of the growing fetus. They are the least effective form of birth control, and they do not enhance the effectiveness of other forms.
The main reason women have a hard time finding decent partners to rear children with is because that is not what they are looking for, until after they get pregnant. All too often the obvious partner, the bio-father, is not "father material," and the men who are "father material" consider impulsive behavior as a less attractive quality in a mate.
People with opposing opinions--I don't own this space. You can write, too.
People who think this stuff isn't important to talk about--you are silly! This stuff is absolutely life and death.
I haven't even had anybody call me on my apparently casual attitude about abortion--just a form of contraception to use when others fail. Come on! I hold my opinions strongly, but that doesn't mean I'm right. Just that I'm loud.
Replied: 2/11/2008 6:52pm.
I can't help noticing that you aren't willing to argue with me on the points I made. Is it really because I am all-knowing and wise? Scary? So out-of-touch with reality that you can't even begin to communicate with me? What? Last post 10 days ago, and you are reading this now, so . . . what is it?
The evidence keeps piling up, even just on these message boards. Stepdaughters keep going all flaky. Bioparents won't take action, possibly because they feel guilty, step-parents can't take action, because the relationships won't hold up under that kind of stress.
Nuclear families are stressful and complicated. step-families are also. There are a few step-families that make it work. They don't post on these boards. I bet most of them have contributed at least some of their income to the upkeep of counselors, but I don't have any solid info. more later--will you or nil you.
Replied: 2/12/2008 2:31pm.
No matter how many times we go back and forth, I do not see the world through the same eyes as you. We are two different people, who have lived different lives, each having our own experiences which have made us who we are today. I do not share your idea that marriage is the ultimate goal, and necessary in order to raise healthy and happy children. The fact that more than ½ of all marriages end in divorce is nothing to be proud of, yet you wave the flag of marriage as if it is the answer to all. If a sign outside a doctors office read that half of all his patients lived, I doubt many would be making appointments.
I have seen where you have said that a single parent should stay single until their children are grown. You then point out, as a way of validating your idea, that step-families are stressed out and don’t work. For the most part, a step parent is a sign that the original marriage failed. The argument could be made that step families have a better chance of success because the parents are aware of what ended that last failed marriage, but someone else can run with that torch.
I am not under the impression, or delusion that my advice is an answer. My advice is just that, advice. I give what I have learned through my life, to those who may be in a similar situation that I have gone through. For most topics on this board there is no right or wrong answer, just different ideas as to how to solve their problems. As I see it I will not change your opinion on these issues, nor do I care to do so, and you will not change mine. Lets just agree to disagree. I think those seeking advice will be better served by having several different opinions rather than everyone agreeing with each other.
Replied: 2/12/2008 4:40pm.
You said that step-families don't post on this site? We are a step family. I was divorced 1 after a nightmare 22 years of marriage. My partner helped me bring up my child who was four when we met. He is now 18, and we are a wonderful example that step-families can and do work. We are a great little family unit.
Replied: 2/12/2008 6:35pm.
You keep presenting as my idea the notion that marriage is the ultimate goal and necessary in order to raise happy and healthy children. I have never said that. I have said that children are not the only ones to thrive when there is a commitment to love and security. I have said things to the effect that a formalized relationship helps address some of the deception and abuse that occurs in cohabitation as well as in marriages, I have never said that marriage is necessary to rear happy and healthy children. I tried to make the point that marriage does not change people--in response to your assumption that that was the purpose of marriage.
Just wanted to clarify that, but yes, I will agree to disagree, I just will not agree to being misrepresented. I stated that nuclear families are stressful and complicated.
Stephy, you are correct. There are step-families who make it work, and who post on these boards. And as I have said before, I am glad that your family made it work. You brought additional sound support into your life, and that was a good thing. If everybody were as wise or lucky as you were, I would have no problem endorsing new relationships.
Replied: 2/12/2008 6:57pm.
Replied: 1/2/2008 7:12pm.
Those of you who are familiar with me know what I'm going to say. The chaos that is generated in children's minds when people are having sexual relations without a commitment is detrimental to the psychological well-being of the children. And anybody who says "we're committed, but we just aren't married" is delusional. I absolutely applaud your boyfriend. He values his son's perception of appropriate sexual behavior, although he thinks it is ok as long as his son doesn't see it. (Read krein's message to see if finding out the reality will just be something to get through.) If you need someone to relieve your sexual tension, find somebody who doesn't have a child. Apart from that-- the pursuit of happiness, which is guaranteed in the constitution, does not translate to sexual activity. You're not entitled. Grow up.
Replied: 2/29/2008 12:11am.
caught me! I was over-emotional on that post, that is why I decided I needed to get out of that forum to explore ideas. Good on ya! There are people who are committed who are not married.
But, additional note. Nothing here about marriage being the ultimate goal. If you have the Freudian attitude that sexual activity is the ultimate goal, then you can go on to marriage being the ultimate goal. If you have the idea that a parent having sexual relations is necessary for raising happy and healthy children, then you can go on to marriage being necessary to happy and healthy children, but I have never seen anything about the relationship between sexual activity and child-rearing success.
Have I missed something? I do remember something like "Sex has as much to do with parenting as a car manufacturer has to do with how the new owners take care of their new car." But that is your metaphor and I take it out of context here.
Consider my actual thesis. The nuclear family is the best practice, but is neither necessary nor sufficient for rearing happy and healthy children. And yes, I do believe that legal marriage provides societal and governmental support to the nuclear family, and that within the context of legal marriage, sexual activity is important for maintaining the marital relationship.
Stephy, I am sincerely glad that you have established the relationship you have with your partner. I would not suggest that you mess with it. But your situation is unusual.
I wonder about the complications that other couples face.
The multi-nuclear family, the "Smith" kids, the "Jones" kids, and then sometimes the "Smith-Jones" kids. stressing the relationship between Ms. Smith and Mr. Jones, and this is one thing that seems to get worse if Ms. Smith and Mr. Jones marry. I say again. Wait till the children are up and out. Because you do deserve some happiness, and the evidence on these boards, as well as in studies, shows that minor children and their parents have a better chance at happiness if the nuclear family, even in divorce, is not superceded by new parental sexual relationships.
Oh, and the pursuit of happiness is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence.
Replied: 2/29/2008 12:24am.
Thoughts about marriage--in response to you wouldn't go to a doctor with a 50% survival rate. Oh the danger of metaphors. You pick yours, and I'll pick mine.
Committing to a long-term monogamous relationship is like climbing Mt. Everest, most of the people who make the attempt fail. I believe that all of those who make a serious attempt to climb the mountain know that they are likely to fail--it would be good if those who contemplated the other endeavor understood the failure rate. But we encounter people at work and at the grocery store and in our own families, the most ordinary people, and they seem to be succeeding in the commitment endeavor. Like climbing Everest, careful preparation (which takes long term effort) does not guarantee success. Like climbing Everest, requires a team effort. Like climbing Everest, choosing the team members thoughtfully and with an understanding of their preparation is important. Like climbing Everest, if you have started the journey and discover your team lacks the necessary skills or equipment or commitment, it is a real good idea to give up quickly and get everybody safely back to where they started and also, like climbing Everest without the complication of pregnancy. Like climbing Everest, you need to learn from the successes and failures of those who have gone before and if you make a new attempt, learn from your own experience. And, like climbing Everest, you need to file paperwork, partly to show you have a plan, and partly so it is easier to rescue you if you fail. But if you need to (metaphorically) be under a doctor's care, wait until you are healed before you make a trip up this metaphorical Everest. It isn't wise or fair for you to join such an expedition
Some people trap themselves into commitment by having sexual intercourse and initiating an unintended pregnancy.
Some people take on commitment as if it were a dance, Everybody else is on the dance-floor, I want to come, too. Oh, the rules say you need a partner? Somebody, pick me!
Some people take on commitment as if it were a hike up a ridge. Metaphorically, they meet somebody at the trailhead who looks like they could make it, and head off up the path together, knowing little about the character of their partner. Suddenly, before they know it, they find themselves at 12,000 feet, or 20,000 feet, and it is dang cold and steep and there are none of the comforts of home and too often, they fail. If they are lucky, they live.
Traditionally, a long engagement served the purpose of a trial marriage. The advice was given, before you marry keep your eyes wide open. Take the opportunity to test one's self and observe the partner under stressful circumstances, like practice climbs in preparation for that Everest climb. One could discover things like attitudes toward money, household obligations, extended family and disciplining children by talking together and by observing one another within the context of daily life, without the psychological effect of a sexual relationship. The crippling S's and A's could often be detected. (S's Self-centered, self-righteous, short-sighted, short-tempered, A's Addiction, Abuse, Adultery). Even the fuss of the major production that a wedding has become gives one the opportunity to observe these things, before the I do's are done.
And as I said before; careful preparation and wise choice of team member do not guarantee success. Even if you both do everything right, you can fail.
I join the chorus in the question, WHY would anybody attempt this? I don't know the answer. But we do make the attempt. "Because it is there?" "The reproductive imperative?" "Safe sex?"
Maybe because when a family does work, it is an amazing thing. A creative effort that produces a masterpiece. A safe haven. Giggles emanating from the blanket-fort we built. A treasure that all of us can strive for. And so, worth the attempt, and the risk of failure.
.
Replied: 3/4/2008 12:26pm.
There goes another one. The thing that led me to start this thread. Some female exchanging real sex for pretend intimacy, destabilizing the foundation of 2 kids, excuse me 3, with the cooperation of the dad, who deserves some happiness and who also equates happiness with orgasms. And instead of whaling on her, I'm just going to say, over here, on this thread, see! The amazing kids, instead of confronting her and telling her to go take care of her own family, are washing the dog in the shower she uses. I like the symbolism, vulgar poetry. The children don't have a say, and probably don't recognize in the front part of their brains what they are doing, but it's pretty obvious. They can't lay down an ultimatum, so they will make things increasingly uncomfortable for her. The sad thing is that their relationship with their father will deteriorate. I repeat, find somebody without children to satisfy your sexual needs. And wait until your own children are grown.